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Refreshing A Brand To Scale With Bethan Thomas

• Clare Sheffield

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0:00 | 38:46

What happens when retail buyers tell you your business is “too niche”… but your customers prove otherwise?

In this episode of Own Your Space, Clare Sheffield sits down with Bethan Thomas from HotTea Mama to explore the real story behind building a brand that supports women through pregnancy, motherhood, PMS, PCOS, endometriosis, and menopause, one sip at a time.

Bethan shares HotTea Mama’s authentic beginnings, the knock-backs from major retailers, and the determination it took to stay focused on a clear mission. They talk about what drove the decision to refresh the brand and packaging, and how better on-pack communication helped justify price point, showcase whole leaf quality, strengthen product differentiation, and support international growth.

You’ll also hear why bold, unapologetic branding matters in a category that often defaults to beige and clichés, plus practical advice on where to invest in design when budgets are tight.

If you’re scaling a values-led product brand, this is a powerful reminder that owning your space starts with clarity and conviction.

Follow Bethan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethan-thomas-hottea-mama/

HotTea Mama Website: https://www.hotteamama.com/

Clare:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Own Your Space, with myself, Clare Sheffield. Thank you so much for joining me again today, and I am really delighted because we've got a very special guest today, Behan from HotTea Mama, and we are going to be talking to her about her journey with the brand, some of the challenges, some of the successes, and it'll be really, really wonderful to hear those stories. Welcome Bethan.

Bethan:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Clare:

Really great to have you here today. So I think, first off, why don't you just tell us a little bit about the beginning? Why did you start HotTea Mama, when did you start and kind of what was your, what was your big mission?

Bethan:

So I started Hot Tea Mama with my best friend Kate, in 2017, that time is like a warp, but it's that eight years, almost eight years ago. Um, and it was very much her idea. So Kate had had two children. In the space of almost like 10 months. And she is Australian, big coffee drinker and suddenly was kind of facing like a life with very minimal coffee, but also lots of problems, that came up through pregnancy that couldn't be medicated, such as morning sickness, feeding kind of support, and she came to me because not only am I friend her friend, but I have a strong tea background. So I, have always worked in tea since I left university as a tea buyer and blender and then studied tea science at an agriculture university in China, so quite niche level of tea, knowledge and love. And she kind of said to me, are there teas that can support me in this? So that was very much the beginning of the idea of the company. Um, and she's extremely creative, very entrepreneurial. She said, well, why is nobody making teas that are designed for kind of pregnant or breastfeeding women? Because you are worried about your diet, there are a lot of ingredients that you can't actually or shouldn't drink, that are in kind of standard herbal teas that you find in the supermarket. Could we make a business of this? And I thought it was a great idea. Um, and went along for the ride really with, with her idea, but used my knowledge to develop a range of teas to support women in that stage of life. Since then, our missions changed a little bit. So originally we were very much about supporting women through pregnancy and, and motherhood. We, over the kind of last eight years, have extended to cover other stages of life that are equally difficult and where tea can again, be a really strong support for PMS, PCOS endometriosis, difficult periods and perimenopause, post menopause. So our mission now is very much just to really naturally support and nourish women through those really transformational, but often very challenging times of life, we always kind of say one sip at a time, just like

Clare:

Absolutely.

Bethan:

Yeah. And that's what we do. We try to make women feel better when sometimes we don't.

Clare:

That's really interesting. I love the fact that it's, it was such an authentic beginning. It, it started with, you know, a problem and a solution that was born out of a, obviously a, a natural set of circumstances. When you first started, and the teas were very sort of specific for throughout pregnancy and sort of breastfeeding, did people say to you, that's too niche? Why are you doing that? You're really limiting your market?

Bethan:

Yeah, so I think initially. That was definitely something not online. So I think the benefit that you have from having a relatively niche like focus with your customer is that actually we grew quite naturally on Instagram as the one place we focused and people really understood it. But a friend of mine had a friend who was a buyer at Selfridges, and I remember she said, oh, shall I put you in touch? And I, I got in touch, I sent samples and they immediately responded saying it was all, you know, love your packaging, love the tea, but it's too niche. We want something that anybody could buy and had the same response again. Because I've worked in the tea industry for a long time, I had a connection at Harrods and I reached out to him and he said the exact same thing. And I would say, for at least, kind of three years, that was always the response. Even to be honest, when we launched the period support and menopause support teas, which we did just after lockdown, really like towards the end of lockdown, we still had retail buyers saying, oh, that's too niche. Which at that point really annoyed me because women aren't niche. And I also think when you look at like the maternal nutrition market, but also the period and, and menopause, uh, kind nutrition market around supplements, it's absolutely not all small area, but teas actually are a very bioavailable source of some of the key components that are extracted in kind of an ultra processed way into supplements. We were able to kind of offer that to people naturally, and that has now changed a little bit, but I think it's still a problem that we have to communicate and improve on, convince buyers to take a chance on us. Even though we launched into Holland and Barrett, we've had like 58% growth year on year. We're in our third year with them now. Um, we are in every single one of their stores in the UK and Ireland. Um, clearly it's not niche enough not to sell when you give it a chance. So yeah, we at least are building up data to take to people to, to switch of that to.

Clare:

I think it must have been, you must have had to really stick to your, to your guns. And I think that's what's obviously talking about owning your space and people talking about is it too niche? But actually, if you are super niche, then you get known for being that one brand that absolutely delivers for that target market. And actually you, by starting even as tight as pregnancy and, and new mums actually, you were able to really focus on, have a really clear target market that then you could build upon. But it must have been quite difficult getting those knock backs from those buyers very early on. But it sounded like it didn't make you waver and think, should we?

Bethan:

No, I think you have to, maybe it's a certain level of like blind confidence, but when we set up the business, I was pregnant with my second child and we kind of lived the experience and whilst the retail buyers were saying no, we were actually seeing big increases on Amazon, big increases on, on our website, and it was enough in combination with just having that lived experience going, well, no, you are, you are wrong. And I think we didn't have the data at that point, but now eight years on, when I'm looking at trying to put together information for, for retail buyers, you go, or hang on, like the maternal nutrition market, women actually spend more during pregnancy than the entirety of their life on their periods.

Clare:

Wow.

Bethan:

So I think it's the kind of thing where, and again, maybe it's having women in the room more in some of these discussions as well, but I think there's a lot of investment in fem tech around periods or things related to periods, but that's not actually where we spend our money. We spend it when we're in menopause and when we're pregnant. I did not, I could not have proven that to anybody eight years ago. You just have that gut feel and the small amount of data that you have. But that's, that's the facts now. And you know, again, maternal nutrition's 20 billion global market, even it's niche. But even if you get a small niche within that niche, you've got a very, very strong business. And I think, yeah, it's still frustrating and I still, you know, you can't run a business without getting knocked backs. If you gave up every time somebody said no, then you wouldn't do very well. But yeah, I think over time, building up that evidence base to justify your gut opinion.

Clare:

Absolutely that information gathering. That's really interesting. Mm-hmm. So obviously you, when you originally started the brand, you worked with a designer that was a friend of Kate's.

Bethan:

Yes. Mike,

Clare:

you created, created the identity and some packaging. Um, and then obviously we worked together on a rebrand and some developed packaging. What made you decide that that was the right time to look at evolving the brand and reviewing the packaging?.

Bethan:

So I think we'd had the packaging for four years. So we'd kind of gone through very early days and Mike did do a great job. We had a cube. We wanted the cube as a point of difference as a brand called Tea Two who had a cube in their retail stores. And we did, you know, we quite liked that. We wanted it to be really giftable. 'cause again, pregnancy and motherhood at that point being our kind of core focus. You want something that's like an affordable gift to give to somebody. And I loved our logo because a lot of people don't notice it. Designers always do. But we said to Mike when we were briefing him, he said, from the bottle of wine where it's telling you not to drink if you're pregnant, so you've got like the woman holding her back with a bump and a glass of wine in her hand. It's like, how could we have something that makes it so obvious that you should drink this? Like the polar opposite but in a similar style. And he very cleverly put a pregnant lady in the steam with the

Clare:

really good.

Bethan:

Yeah, just really, really clever. Um, and it worked well. We launched into Holland and Barrett with these. But we always felt, as soon as you see it on shelf, it had a really great point of difference to anything else that was on the shelf. But we're a six pound price point. A lot of other things in Holland and Barrett at that point, were kind of £2.50, how do you know that ours is worth that much more. And we'd already started to work on the design, I think with you when there was a range review. And the buyer did say to us almost this exact point, like, how do I know that it's Whole Leaf, which all of our tea is, how do I know how it differs from kind of the standard stuff? So your redesign was so clever 'cause again, we are limited in what we can say on pack legally, 'cause we are not, we have to work within legislation around claims. And obviously all our products are natural and herbal. They don't have tick boxes to say high in vitamin C, therefore you can say it will help with bone health or whatever. So we really knew we wanted to communicate more A what was inside, which you did very nicely, to justify the price points so people could see it was not a normal tea add.

Clare:

Yes. Quality.

Bethan:

Pull out the key ingredients. 'cause again, we can't necessarily say menopause support on the front of the pack, but we can pull out ingredients like sage, valerian, green tea, which, people might link the benefits to, and the evolution of the logo I love, so I know you did a lot of options for us, but we move from a pregnant lady, to a lady, which definitely, you know, was really important for kind of trying to encapsulate that we, you know, keeping that consistency because I think, again, we evolve the colours, which I think is really strong, but you've still got that core brand essence that we've built up a lot of loyalty around over the three to four years before, but it just immediately shows you the quality more, shows you the active ingredients. And again, we, we made all the products organic, which is something we always wanted to do, we couldn't afford to at the beginning.

Clare:

Yeah, yeah.

Bethan:

Getting the organic logo on there was good. And yeah, we definitely, we've had really good growth in sales as I mentioned, which you can never a hundred percent put purely down to, you know, the packaging, but I do think it has made a very big difference to purchase rate.

Clare:

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. I think some of the other challenges that we had on pack, we were looking at in, we had lots of languages, didn't we, that we needed to include? So there was a lot of information

Bethan:

Yeah. To allow us to expand internationally, post Brexit. We didn't have any language on this pack. Um, but obviously post Brexit regulation and requirements are quite strong. And originally when we launched with Holland and Barrett, this pack is compliant for Ireland, but nowhere else. And we've now, it's still taken us years. We're literally just launching onto Amazon, EU, the different markets that we put on. But yeah, we are now able to do that, which is good.

Clare:

Yeah. So that's a definite shift, isn't it? And obviously part of the business is in Australia.

Bethan:

Mm.

Clare:

And are the requirements for packaging much different there?

Bethan:

I think we could probably say much more. So we've launched into the US recently actually as a co-brand with, um, a company called Lansinoh, specifically just on the pregnancy and motherhood blends. And they're not classed as teas in America. They're classed as dietary supplements, which means you can make much bolder claims. You have to provide the evidence of why, so they're actually claims that I think would be fine to make here, like, fenugreek is shown to support breastfeeding, so we can call our fenugreek blender breastfeeding tea in the US, which we could never do in Europe. And I think in Australia we sell the same product, but actually, if we had higher volumes there, and when we get to that point, we'd probably switch not the identity or the general information, but to have a stronger claim in terms of menopause tea or breastfeeding support tea or birth preparation tea, of these areas, which you just can't do in the UK.

Clare:

Yeah. I think one of the things you've done really successfully though is you talk about a lot of the benefits on social media, and a lot of your customers actually talk about how other teas have benefited them, don't they? So that really helps to build that understanding, even though you can't claim lots of those things actually on the packaging itself.

Bethan:

Exactly. And we did speak about with the on-brand packaging, a lot of what we do is education based in terms of our email marketing and, and social marketing. Because yeah, you do need to explain why you've chosen raspberry leaf and there is research evidence, it's just not at a clinical kind of level. So using the evidence that we've got, we've put raspberry leaf in this because it's linked to these things and people do experience that. We get kind of good reviews, but we really wanted the front to kind of feel compared to this one. Like, not medically, but I remember us talking about like how vitamin companies kind of put a lot of information on in a grid format. Yes. Um, and again, I think you can kind of express that wellness element by using some of the stylized things,

Clare:

yeah,

Bethan:

In other areas. So yeah, it's definitely, it's still kind of like evolving to, to some degree, you know, you wanna build trust. So we've won a lot of awards over the years, so we've been adding those on to the pack. Yeah. And things like that. But I think the, the actual branding as it is at the moment, it still works really well for us. It's got a lot of legs.

Clare:

It's very strong, isn't it? It's very striking. Yeah. Just going back to the awards, obviously we sort of, um, we updated some of the awards, um, recently on the packaging for some of the next print run. 'cause obviously you're winning awards all of the time.

Bethan:

Mm.

Clare:

Also sort of carry some sort of logos, don't you, to put, you know, of part of communities that you're part of. Yeah. Such as it's by women built and also the menopause friendly,

Bethan:

yeah.

Clare:

Which is, is really important, isn't it? Because it, you know, it obviously makes you really credible within those communities.

Bethan:

Yeah. I think, 'cause being brutally honest about our kind of area, there are a lot of companies I see who do make wild claims on packaging about, you know, and weight loss is an area that really aggravates me because. In general, no tea can make you lose weight. So there are laxative tea, like herbs that have laxative effects. But yeah, you see companies kind of claiming, you know, get rid of your belly fat, like specifically with this like one tea. Um, and. Yeah, it was quite, it's just nonsense. It's real nonsense. And it's preying on people's kind of fears in these times of life that we want to naturally support and make sure women feel nourished, um, better with our products, but also be really clear what they can and can't do. Um, and awards and community are a really key part of that. Um, but then, yeah, trying to sort of make it clear what we're claiming, what we're not claiming. We're very careful on pack not to claim anything, and then to kind of try and educate and share information and make it very clear that no tea is ever gonna

Clare:

no

Bethan:

induce your labor or, you know, give you a perfect kind of birth experience. But you can use specific herbal ingredients that have been used for millennia that have research behind them, that show for 50% or more of women there is a, this specific benefit. So, yeah, but it is quite a hard one to do. So, yeah, on the packaging, it's very much like, yeah, just trying to build trust and yeah, authenticity in a world where maybe you should be a bit distrustful of some things out there.

Clare:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously you've, you've launched the hot chocolates.

Bethan:

Yes.

Clare:

Which is a new product and I've tasted them myself, and they are delicious.

Bethan:

They are really good. I had one yesterday in the mid afternoon. I was like, you know what? I just want a hot chocolate, which I don't normally do.

Clare:

Nice in the afternoon.

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

And have they they been a big hit.

Bethan:

Yes. So we launched two hot chocolates, so a breastfeeding support, hot chocolate and an ashwagandha hot chocolate, kind of stress, relaxation. And yeah, they've been really successful. The breastfeeding one in particular, like we can't really stay in stock of, which is good. Well, it's bad, but it's good. Yeah. But I think, yeah, people, it's a really interesting one 'cause I, my background, I love tea. But I think there's something very interesting in the level of sort of, you know, like luxury or all our products will increase your oxytocin, like your happy hormone to some degree 'cause a hot cup of anything should, as long as it tastes good, will make you feel better no matter what the kind of biochemical benefits of the actual product you're consuming. But with hot chocolate, I think it even elevates that more like if you're very stressed and feeling really anxious, a tea feels healthy and good for you, um, and it's super hydrating and all that kind of stuff, but actually a hot chocolate, that level of indulgence, when sugar is not the number one ingredient in any of our hot chocolates, which is very unusual, we don't use cocoa mass, we use cacao pure. That is always the number one. So it's very rich and yeah, there's no stabilizers or flavourings or additives. Um, so you know that you are getting the healthiest version of what essentially sometimes you want a bit of an unhealthy product 'cause it's a treat. Um, yeah, it just seems to work well.

Clare:

Excellent. So do you, do you think that you'll extend that, that hot chocolate range?

Bethan:

Yeah, so we are looking, looking at doing a kind of, well it's pregnancy and menopause for is an amazing, ayurvedic herb called shatavari, which has a very intense flavour, so it's working on kind of making it delicious in its format. But we'd like to look at a hot chocolate that serves both our pregnant customers and our menopausal customers too with some, some strong kind of natural benefit. And actually we are looking at kind of coffee latte, matcha powders and I always find it hard 'cause like when you said to me, tell me about the brand, I always talk about us being tea. There's not a great, drinks, doesn't feel like the right word, but I think extending what we do to using botanicals in different kind of formats

Clare:

Yes,

Bethan:

yeah. Is absolutely what we're planning in and our roadmap, 'cause the success of hot chocolates just shows that it's absolutely, absolutely there.

Clare:

Yeah. You've built the trust and the brand loyalty with the teas and people, people appreciate and now understand the, the benefits they can get. So actually moving into hot chocolate as you say, because I, I drink HotTea Mama tea's and actually when I tried the hot chocolate, as you say, it's something I'm not gonna have every day, but actually is a real, sometimes it's as you say, it's just a real indulgence and a treat to have a really lovely hot chocolate.

Bethan:

Well, no, exactly, and I think again, around breastfeeding, you know, women often under fuel themselves, so you need an extra 300 calories per day. You also need an extra liter of like liquids and yeah, a hot chocolate kind of ticks those boxes really well. Because you're gonna be able to cope more with the challenges that a small baby brings.

Clare:

Yeah.

Bethan:

Yeah. If your body is, is nourished and has, you know, a nutritional, um, way to hydrate, uh, is key for that, I think.

Clare:

Yeah, absolutely. That sounds really interesting. So, do you feel the brand, the rebrand in the new packaging, do you think it's changed how the team sort of feel about the brand and you know how confident they are. Do you think it's, you know, it's not, it's not just about how you appear externally to your customers, it's also about how you all feel about the brand in inside your team.

Bethan:

Yeah, I think it's definitely, made everybody feel more confident. I think, I mean, just growth in sales and, you know, impact of, of that is kind of key. But, the confidence, I think something that worked really well with the rebrand is when you bring new people into the team to try and explain to them there's a real design trend that we don't conform to, for Scandinavian kind of beige style.

Clare:

Yes.

Bethan:

And I mean, like, I'm literally looking at the colours that I'm wearing and I'm like, yeah, I like, it's not a personal preference for me. Um, and comes through our branding, but we constantly trying to say, you know, to sort of new team members that come in, we're hard lines and we're bright colours. Like we're not, we're not soft, warm lighting scandy vibes. And I think the packaging is so clear on that. Yeah, it definitely helps express that and we've pulled it through in other design elements, actually externally communicating. We stole recently like for, for our kind of PowerPoint type presentations, but you know, this style of having the, the strong line and right as our front cover, which pulls together really strongly, the core of the brand through everything we're kind of communicating. So I think it's very helpful on just reinforcing that, I mean, I'm very lucky that we've got amazing people who work for us who are very passionate about the brand.

Clare:

I think part of, you know, when we were working on that product range was that, you had extended and extended the range, so actually it becomes more important to be able to differentiate between the different products. So when you're starting with just a few, it's easier to see the difference between a few. But as soon as you've got, for example, eight there, actually, you've got to be super, super clear. And actually it's something that we are talking to more and more about, quite a lot of our clients is that as they're growing, we need to increase the product differentiation to make sure that customers can really easily shop.

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

But also going back to your point about the sort of the bold colours, I think that's what's so nice that it, it's unapologetically individual, bold, confident, just really bright.

Bethan:

Mm.

Clare:

And actually that's part of what stands out on shelf is that it's not kind of worrying about what everybody else is doing and what branding should be, it's about being true to the brand itself. And you know, it's almost sort of, obviously you need to think about what your customers are doing, but it's almost like doing what they're not doing, rather than I need to conform to some sort of category norm, because then you're just gonna blend into the background of everybody else. So I remember that was one of the things that, when we started working on the packaging, it was like, we, we need to retain this really bold, confident look of the pack. And the blue really stood out on shelf against a lot of

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

Pale and white packaging.

Bethan:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it, it really flows through to like what we're trying to give to women. I mean, like I said, it's just one sip at a time, but like, you don't always feel confident or bold when you're pregnant or you're breastfeeding, or you're menopausal, or you're having horrific cramps and you're having to sit, you know, and pretend that you are fine. So I think that coming through, in every element of what we do is really important.

Clare:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that really comes across as well in the kind of the tone of voice that you use and also some of the, the playful names, we haven't actually talked about that.

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

You know, like over the moon and get up and glow, you know, they're quite playful but quite bold, they're not sort of too whimsical.

Bethan:

Yeah. No, we're not whimsical. Oh, definitely not. Yeah. I think again, it's, but to me, I felt like when I was pregnant, it was almost like I stopped mattering. I think it's less true now. But you become like a mom. It's very true. Like once you have your kid, you are like, I'm Keris or Hector's Mum, like in all these contexts. And I felt like suddenly companies also treat you that way. Well have this because it's good for your baby. Have this because your baby needs that. Like, you know, spend all the gifts that you get and they're very rarely for a Mum. And I think menopause has a really similar cultural position where, quite differently, but you almost just disappear from relevance. Like

Clare:

Yes.

Bethan:

The idea that like menopausal women are actually like at the height of like their power, knowledge, authority actually just kind of swept away, which is really sad and kind of ridiculous in my opinion. Like it's a huge waste, um, of women through life when actually what you're doing is not only contributing to the economy, but creating like the next generation of people who are gonna contribute to the economy.

Clare:

Yes.

Bethan:

And supporting them through their lives. So I didn't want the brand to conform to that at all. And it did feel very much like the kind of packaging that was used, the kind of branding that was used suddenly became very pale, very cream, often just not attractive at all.

Clare:

Yeah.

Bethan:

Often just like a Shutterstock style like photo of a pregnant woman doing a heart on her belly. And again for menopause, actually like images featuring women in their seventies that is not relevant in any way to perimenopausal women. It kind of blows my mind when you see these ads and you're like, you are aware that's a very postmenopausal woman, that is not the person you're targeting. And I think, yeah, we wanted HotTea Mama to actually be appealing, that like yes, you might be struggling to look after a baby or struggling with brain fog, like whilst you are, you know, looking after your elderly parents and your children and trying to have a career, but here's something that kind of sees you as an individual still. Not in a whimsical way.

Clare:

I think it's been a real shift in, I'd say it's kind of coincided with my age, but in the last sort of five, maybe seven years particularly that menopause has become more and more talked about out in the open, more products, I don't know whether the menopause tea and hot chocolate would've been as sort of widely successful 10 years ago as it is now, perhaps because more and more people talking. I mean, I've bought the hot chocolate for friends of mine and it's, it's, but it, I don't feel like that would've happened maybe 10 years ago.

Bethan:

Yeah, no, I agree. And I think it's, it's definitely, it's not just us, it's a broader, reach of brands, which I think is really good. But even just like these taboo subjects, like we've just ended endometriosis awareness month and one in 10 women suffer from endometriosis, but I'd never heard of it, until I ran this business and started having people get in touch saying, I have endometriosis. Is there anything you can do? Like seven years ago, I was like, what's that? And like, obviously many people I know suffer from endometriosis.

Clare:

Yes.

Bethan:

But it's not spoken about. And again, when you look at where money goes. In terms of research, there's more spend on male pattern baldness than endometriosis and obviously it would be terrible to lose your hair as a man, that that will have a big impact on you, but it isn't tissue growing on your body organs to the point that you are in debilitating pain every single month, you know? Yeah, if I talk about these things, I get a bit angry about it and I think we are not an angry brand. That's just me in the moment. But I think there's something in the strength of communication in the brand that probably does come from that. And yeah, not feeling all these brands that are like buy this product and you'll have a perfect pregnancy, like that's not something we ever say.

Clare:

I think that passion is just about your, the anger is your passion, wanting to help and support women and wanting to, to fight for them to, to be heard and to have their say and actually to, to support them, isn't it?

Bethan:

Yeah. I mean, it is a very rewarding space to be in as a niche. Again, you know, we get messages from women in ICU with their babies saying, I just wanted to say thank you so much, this is delicious, it's making me feel better, and I am able to pump milk for my baby. Partly, I'm like, I don't think that's just the tea, like that's your determination. That's like the tea is a very small part of that, or the hot chocolate, but the fact that we can be a part of that.

Clare:

Yes,

Bethan:

is pretty wonderful. Having worked for many, many tea companies that also made people feel better, you know, everyone, I think everyone feels better if they have a cup of tea, but in a very different way.

Clare:

No, that's really interesting. So, I mean, we've heard quite a lot about some of the, some of the sort of lessons you've learned, I guess, is do you think there are any sort of overarching lessons that you would, if someone was thinking they've got a brand and they've developed it a little bit, they've started the company, but they're thinking, should I, should I invest in branding? Should I invest in evolving my packaging? I guess what advice would you give people to think about how to approach that process, and what they might need to think about before undertaking that type of project?

Bethan:

I think understanding the amount of money you have available, just to be very practical. Yeah, there's a lot I would say, like Kate and I had a really clear kind of brand vision and we didn't set up brand guidelines initially, but actually we understood enough to make our own. And again, this comes from having a bit of a background in that whilst I worked as a buyer, I was a product manager and you know, have worked in small teams where we've been working on brand anyway. But yeah, I think what can you do yourself and not pay an exorbitant amount of money to somebody to do a less good job is important. And then where should you spend the money? To me, like packaging design is not something you should ever try and knock up yourself. I'm sure people do do that sometimes. I could not have made this and I could not have made this. I can take some of these things and make a wholesale document because we don't have huge budgets. But if you do have huge budgets, then I'd actually say that core brand piece is, is worth spending in. But you know, again, we've never used like an agency for our social media because the brand's very authentic. We want to kind of, we don't need to be polished and have perfect imagery.

Clare:

Yes.

Bethan:

But we have realized recently that actually that holds us back in some advertising because you probably do need better content both for the website and ads. So it's really allocating your budget to what can you manage yourself and what can't you, because if you try to pay for every single element, unless you're very lucky and you have a large amount of investment, it's very hard to do. We started this business with 7,000 pounds that we put in between the two of us and did all the design work and our first production run of a couple of hundred units of, of each, set up the website, did all that registration with that money. Um, you know, and then, then you worry about it. Yeah. Later. But I do think, yeah, there's have, if you, if you can, what can you manage? 'cause then you're gonna brief someone much better a couple of years down the line, to work with you to, to look at it properly and more professionally?

Clare:

Yes. That's interesting. 'cause I think it is, it's about spending the money in the right places, isn't it? Some of the work we've done recently is actually work with clients, so where we've created, for an example, an identity and a range of packaging, for example, then we've kind of created them, like built their brand guidelines within Canva and created, created like templates for them so that they can then create their own social media posts or their own presentations. So it's kind of, it gives them the starting point to have that confidence to be able to put things together that are really on brand, but it's not feasible for people to come back to an agency

Bethan:

and get all their content made. Yeah.

Clare:

It's not, it's not viable and actually it's, it's not the best use of, you know, a design agency's skillset anyway.

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

It's kind of giving clients the core assets and, and I think guidelines is something, it's interesting. They're important to have, but they only need to be as comprehensive as you need them to be because sometimes we see brand guidelines and they're hundreds of pages and actually for brands at the beginning of their journey, and actually they just don't need that much information. Yes, you need some guidelines of what your colours are and what your typography is. And then obviously as a, as a brand grows, yes, the, the guidelines will need to grow to make sure things are staying on brand. But it's interesting what you say about it's, it is thinking and, and spending it in the right places.

Bethan:

Yeah. And I think it's, for me, obviously we worked together when I worked at a different tea company. Um, and obviously Kate knew Mike and knew stuff he'd done. And I do think there's a tendency to think you have to use a big agency. Um, and we've had quotes from big agencies and not gone with them. Interestingly, I've walked into meetings with our packaging and had, you know, CEOs of large global firms go, I love your packaging. One who was like, it's so similar to our rebrand, but I bet you didn't spend what we spent on our rebrand and they're in a different space to us, but hilariously like it. It was like, I was like, oh, 'cause actually, as long as you can communicate properly, you're only ever gonna get as good as something that you brief well.

Clare:

Yes,

Bethan:

and if you try to rely on a big agency to come up with your brand, I don't think even with the biggest budget in the world, they'll do a very good job.

Clare:

Yep.

Bethan:

It's what you feed in that is key. And I think that's very hard if you'd set up a creative business having been an accountant, I'm probably saying it from like a, a position of like luck that I'd worked in the space and yeah, within teams doing this kind of stuff before. But yeah,, I've been mansplained to a lot by large agencies about how I must spend that much money, or there's no point doing it. And, I just don't think that's helpful advice for small businesses sometimes.

Clare:

No, no. It's about, it's about being able to look at the budget you've got and think, what can I achieve with this? And actually, by finding the right design partner, obviously, you know, you work with me, but there, there are other agencies of a similar size. You know, obviously we've got that London agency experience, but actually we now work, you know, myself and two designers, but we work directly with our clients so that there isn't those sort of layers of client services, directors and that type of thing. And actually, I'd never say to a client, you've got to spend tens of thousands of pounds to be able to achieve anything, it's about, I mean, obviously there's a certain amount of money that you need to spend If someone comes and says, we've got, we've got a hundred pounds. Can you create me? But, but equally, you know, it's, it's about working with the client at the stage, the business that they're in and, and helping them develop.

Bethan:

Yeah.

Clare:

Yeah, that's, that's interesting. Well, I, I think I should give a little bit of a summary. We've covered so much ground. So if I can, you know, I think it's just, it's been really interesting to hear, obviously we've heard about the really authentic beginnings of the brand, how you began with an initial identity and a range of packaging, which was amazing to build you brand loyalty and trust and community actually. And then obviously it extended that range, have had a look at a rebrand and new range of packaging that we worked with you on. Then you've introduced a very successful range of hot chocolate, we don't know what the future might bring, but I can foresee lots of additional products to that range. And it's, it's interesting to hear about some of the challenges you've had as well in terms of, you know, talking to some buyers sort of saying perhaps you need to think, you know, you're too niche or, but actually how you stuck to your guns. So yeah, it's really interesting to hear that journey and it's very exciting to see where it goes from here. I would encourage lots of people to try some of the drinks from HotTea Mama because I drink a lot of them and the hot chocolate and they are very, very delicious. We will put a link in the show notes, but it's been really lovely to have you on.

Bethan:

Thanks for having me. No, it's been good.

Clare:

It's been really great.

Bethan:

Apologies for the rage about endometriosis

Clare:

so I'd definitely like to say anybody, please do subscribe and share and please do recommend to any other business founders that might find it interesting to hear about branding and HotTea Mama, so thank you so much for coming on, Bethan.

Bethan:

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Clare:

Yeah, great to see you. Thanks so much. Take care.

Bethan:

Thank you. Bye.